1. Words from Bluets by Maggie Nelson
"I don't go to the movies anymore. Please don't try to convince me. When something ceases to bring you pleasure, you cannot talk pleasure back into it. "My removal arose not out of a conscious decision, but was simply a natural fading away from film," writes artist Mike Kelley. "We have become filmic language, and when we look at the screen all we see is ourselves. So what is there to fall into or be consumed by? When looking at something that purports to be you, all you can do is comment on whether you feel it is a good resemblance or not. Is it a flattering portrait? This is a conscious, clearly ego-directed, activity." I find myself in agreement with him on all counts. Perhaps this is why I have turned my gaze so insistently to blue: it does not purport to be me, or anyone else for that matter. "I think both the theater and we ourselves have had enough of psychology" (Artaud)." p. 66-67
2. Paintings by Simon Andrew (via Mira Godard)
Comparing my emotional reaction to these paintings versus what my reaction would be to photographs of the same rooms. Thoughts I might have about photographs of real rooms, that I did not have about these paintings: What is that wall colour called? Where did they buy that? I should redecorate. I wish I had more money.
Spin-off thoughts:
People generally read my blog like it's the photograph and I mostly want them to read it like it's the painting. I wonder: Maybe, it's precisely the realism of the blog that invites identification and projection of self. I see a photo of an interior, I'm inclined to wonder if I'd live with that wall colour, how comfortable the sofa is. But when I look at painted interiors, I respond more abstractly to form, composition, colour, light, mood. I'm not trying to render everything relatable or realistic. I'm open to being moved more ineffably.
And when I read a poem or a novel, I'm similarly open to the characters and plot; it's not driven by identification, though of course that sometimes happens. Rather, I'm looking to be moved and indeed, I often value being moved by the unexpected, by a character who shares none of my history or geography, inner or outer; by something wholly unrelated to my life.
When I write for my blog, I'm often trying to move people rather than write something relatable. And so I'm often confused by reactions, which are rarely a response to what I've written and instead offer a counter-story. Of course, I'm flattered that people want to share their stories with me and I enjoy hearing them. But it's confusing when I'm trying to write something expressive and I don't know if I've failed or if readers simply aren't looking to be moved, rather they're motivated by an opportunity to share, to meet minds.
It's a little bit of a revolution for me to think that this is inherent in the ontology of the blogosphere. That precisely because our blogs are such realistic, day-by-day snapshots of what is supposedly our real life, that they don't necessarily encourage agnostic reflection. I wonder if the closer we get to realism, the more we elicit personal identification? And if a visceral emotional reaction is what I'm looking for, maybe the ontology of the blog is bound to fail me. Maybe its very realism will always elicit identification first and foremost.
Yet, I don't agree with the Bluets quote fully - not as pertaining to all movies. So, maybe you can have both. And maybe that's what I want to work on.
You know what's strange - I'm almost always moved by what you write and post but I think I find it hardest to comment when I'm the most moved. It's hard for articulate what I'm feeling beyond "wow."
ReplyDeleteIt's almost definitely just lack of practice - I will push myself.
And here I am using your post as a lens to look at myself... that line "I think both the theater and we ourselves have had enough of psychology" is something I'll have to think about.
Much to ponder here, a reason I enjoy your writing so much.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the reason that people are moved to add their own counter-stories is to somehow reinforce what you have said, like, yes, I too have experienced something like this in my own life. (?)
Very interesting post,I had never fully realized how looking at a photo vs. a painting could bring on such differing emotional responses, you are so right.
it makes me question whether art is something that pulls you out of your self or deeper into yourself... and how the world of photography/advertising/blogging relate to those notions. very complicated indeed:)
ReplyDeletei can't really agree with that quote on movies... though, i do agree in relation to how formulaic and self absorbed popular films have become. i loved Tree of Life precisely because it plays with those notions but i think perhaps in a way that would be the opposite of what that quote is expressing:) if that makes sense.
i totally agree with your second point. i love to look at beautiful shots of homes but it so easily becomes consumerist and self deprecating. reading blogs can be the same experience.
i think the practice of blogging is one many people are trying to figure out the meaning of. i can't really express all my complicated feelings on that but i do often think of your blogging as something that is different to most that i read...
I think I deleted my comment earlier...
ReplyDeleteI really like this comparison of perspectives: the painting and the photograph with blogging.
I'm not sure if I always take the intended perspective with your blog. However, you often move me and you often strike a chord.
Your blogs often reads like a painting to me.
ReplyDeleteEspecially your 3 of a kind this summer. They are miniature works of art?
When something you have written strikes a cord within me I often express that feeling with a story about myself. This is how I attempt to show my memory of said mood.
Make sense?
xo Jane
I, like you, am trying to find that balance between content that is relatable and content that moves people beyond their immediate personal reaction. So many blogs are stylized; fashion, decoration, design are the topics that reap the most interest and response, at least from what I've come across. I think your content is more poetic and moving like a painting than it is photographic and "realist." It often moves me to seek more information, to pause and reflect, to see the bigger picture. You offer the best of both worlds in many ways from your reflections on personal experience to intellectual stimulation to artistic intrigue. I think it's important not to constantly focus on how things will be interpreted by others, but to express with candidness and authenticity what YOU think and how YOU feel. To write, create and publish in anticipation of what people will say can be crippling, at least it is for me.
ReplyDeleteI think people in general, and especially women, are inclined to relate even if they feel moved. Maybe especially if they feel moved. I agree with the first commenter - often when I feel simply "wow," I also feel that if I comment and say that, it seems kind of superficial. Which I know is strange.
ReplyDeleteThat last thought there is what I thought as I read: Why can't it be both? I understand that sometimes intent is a specific thing, but isn't one of the best qualities about writing the surprise it can generate based on different readers' perspectives and attributions? Sometimes I share to move and sometimes I share to forge a sense of unity, and more often than not, it's a combination of the two, which in my opinion, is usually the most fulfilling.
ReplyDeleteI would agree with Samantha - I think that frequently we are moved and then we seek to relate. There's something about how we express ourselves that seems to demand stories in return for stories.
ReplyDeleteIt strikes me that people are not able to listen as well as we once were. To read a blog post, allow it to move you, reflect on it and then come back to comment once your thoughts are formed is simply something most of us don't think to do. Rather, we take the piece that reminds us of something personal and share that instead.
ReplyDeleteI think in the same way that a painter or musician might be surprised by the reaction their work receives, you are left surprised. Instead of moving us in the way you imagined, we are moved in our own way. Your writing though, is no less important. Often I read your posts and then think about them while I'm printing or sewing. I just never come back to tell you how the words affected me that day. I'll try to do that more often.
Well, I think the fact that we know you are there--on the other side of this comment will always elicit a desire to relate or relay.
ReplyDeleteIf I go to a gallery or museum and stand in front of a painting, my mind will wander and I will internalize my reaction--maybe talk about it with someone later. Now, if I go to a gallery and the artist is standing there--right next to their painting--I will want to relay something to them about my feelings and praise and thank them for their work.
Also, I see you as someone who I'd be real life pals with if we were living in the same town or if one of us went to the other person's city for a visit. For me, this means the comments I leave will often be the same, maybe unsolicited, supportive chirps that I'm inspired to blurt at my friends. I hope you're cool with that!
Maybe a writing group would get you the interactions and true creative feedback that it sounds like you're craving? See--lookie there, unsolicited advice.
This a particularly good post. A cri de coeur to be read differently, for your words to be understood as they were written.
ReplyDeleteAs a regular reader I've noticed this sense of minor dismay that recurs when you comment on comments(or possibly even more than minor, but you express yourself with great restraint!)
You use your own experiences to reflect upon broader issues that interest or puzzle you but often your readers will beetle in upon the original experience to identify with you; leaping to console or support you...when you were not really looking for that at all. In your writing you create a kind of intellectual space around your experiences and step back to look at them in an objective light. And that space is (at least sometimes) ignored by your readers.
I think it is a combination of the reasons given by the commenters before me on this thread: people often don't listen/read very closely and they do love to share their own stories.
Anyway, I think you've presented your case in a lovely and thoughtful way.
You have a wonderful way of making me think, which I just have to say thank you for. Julia
ReplyDeleteJust want to add that, upon re-reading, my previous comment comes across as being a bit smug about the wrong kind of reader (not ME, of course, heaven forfend) and all the blundering things THEY say about your blog. It wasn't meant that way at all - I think your work attracts a lot of thoughtful comment. It's just that I have observed this tension with great interest; in fact, it is one of the reasons I almost always read the comments as well as the blog.
ReplyDeleteMouse
Really great insight about the paintings vs. a photo. So true! And maybe it suggests that writing in a more impressionistic way has some value? Or a different kind of value than posts which can be taken more literally. I found that thought hopeful. I bore myself a bit when I'm writing too many literal detail about my life. Some of the blog posts I've been most pleased with are the ones where I rambled or just let myself spring off into some speculative or fictional mode...
ReplyDeleteI think this is a fascinating discussion. I know you like honesty, Jane. So I have to say, when I feel like there is expectation for my comments or possible criticisms of them, it makes me feel really alienated as a reader. I am shy to leave a comment if I think it might upset the blogger or is not what they want. I know that's not what you are going for, but for me, that's what I feel when I hear things like this.
ReplyDeleteElena - Thank you. I definitely am not trying to tell people what to post in response to my posts. I'm not controlling in that way. Rather, to express that in the same way my posts might make people feel a certain way, so too do the comments I receive on posts.
ReplyDeleteClaire - Yes I agree. The desire to meet minds is strong and one of the reasons I was drawn to the blogosphere. I think so many bloggers feel alienated and finding people who have similar experiences / interests / feelings is something we all revel in. That said, I think there's a risk in viewing the blogosophere as an opportunity to hold mirrors up to each other (not that I think you're suggesting that) and that we should be as open to the differences as we are to the similarities.
Cary - Thank you. I agree with you on many points and I'm glad you see my blog as something different.
Alice - Thank you - that is lovely to hear. It's not that I have a narrow single-minded expectation with my posts. This is a dialogue and meaning is always an amorphous thing. You'll sometimes see me say things like "that's not what I meant" in response to comments, but that's not meant to undermine the person's interpretation, rather to better express or clarify myself.
Bethany - I agree. I need to focus a lot less on comments people leave, especially when it's apparent people respond only to pictures or are projecting their own agenda onto things I simply did not write. Being misunderstood and my reaction to that are things I grapple with and need to be a little more indifferent towards. At the same time, comments are the only response I get to my blog and even though the vast majority of readers never comment, I do appreciate those who do and place value on that exchange, so it's difficult to wholly ignore.
Samantha / Rachel / Kayla - I agree. We're empathic and we look for ways to relate to each other. I do also think there's value in a less ego-centric reaction, in more abstract appreciation. I sometimes think likemindedness is overrated and a bit of an illusion.
Sam - I agree. I think reflective reading is something blogs do not often elicit. Often it's a more hunt-and-destroy approach, looking for inspiration, images to pin, an extension of what we already know and like. I think something is being lost there.
Cat & Mouse - Thank you. I think you understand where I'm coming from. This is a difficult post I think because people feel like I am imperiously judging their comments and that's not the case. Rather I'm sometimes hurt or confused when people think a post is a request for advice or something concrete when it is more abstract. Being misunderstood is very injurious to me.
Chelsea - I have no requirement about the content of comments. I don't have an idea of the "kind of comment I want" when I write a pot. In fact, I'm always curious and often pleasantly surprised by the intelligence and reflection my posts elicit.
However, I will often react if a comment misunderstands what I have written. I take great pains to express myself clearly and when a person willfully mischaracterizes me, I will always set the record straight.
If you find that critical or alienating, then I am sorry. But I believe fundamentally in honest exchanges and in open constructive dialogue. I do not ferociously attack people for comments, but I do engage them, agree and sometimes disagree with them, clarify and learn from them.
I too struggle with being misunderstood. A few years ago I had a couple of friendships end because these friends were always putting words into my mouth or wilfully twisting my words and actions. It's something that still affects me, even though I know most people mean well and are not like these ex-friends.
ReplyDeleteI suppose I wanted to say I totally know where you're coming from.
I think it's even happened before in comments on this blog where I've misunderstood you or vice versa, and one of us added a clarification, and I always appreciate that we can do that here and the other party gets it. I don't know if I've ever said that before, but I do appreciate it. It doesn't often happen in other blogs.
I totally get that, Jane. It's no fun being misunderstood! I feel that way at times. I guess when we put things out to the Internet, they are going to be interpreted through the lens of each reader. Everyone has a different perspective, so they'll often interpret things in the way that makes the most sense to them and since we all have different experiences, the responses will be as varying as people are. I have a hard time when I seem to only get comments from people who just want to "network" rather than genuinely enjoy the content. I am sure every blogger feels misunderstood in one way or another and it's super frustrating when that happens.
ReplyDeleteThanks Samantha - I value that about you too!
ReplyDeleteI realize blogging is a strange thing. Blogging not just a one-way dialogue - comments enable engagement, debate and dissent. But, at the same time, it's the blogger who decides what to post, how to write those posts and how to present what we want to say - it's the blogger who takes the risk of being a content creator and sharing innermost thoughts.
ReplyDeleteWhen it's implied - or stated directly - that my mode of expression seems designed to alienate or discourage engagement, I feel like giving up. I really do. I know my blog is not everybody's cup of tea (in truth, I like that it's not everybody's cup of tea), but I never intend my voice to be imperious or make people feel too shy to comment.
I don't make any money off my blog. I don't use it to promote my career as a journalist. In fact, the only thing I get from blogging is my own satisfaction and the feedback from the small minority readers who make that amazing effort to reach back.
It might be easy to underestimate, but the effort I make to post every day, as consistently as I do, is tremendous. Whether I'm having surgery or planning a rare day off work, I consider my blog, my readers, meeting their expectations. So to be told my posts are alienating, makes me feel utterly discouraged.
I've got to say, I've never felt as misunderstood and discouraged by this entire enterprise as I do right now.
When I read your blog, I do so because you present moods, emotions and visions that I enjoy sharing and thinking about. Your posts on objects or fashion were a challenge for me at first because of the generally consumerist mode with which other blogs presented similar items. It took time to learn to look at your blog differently - as evocative rather than acquisitive and I'm embarrassed to think back to comments I made about the cost of things.
ReplyDeleteJane, I love your blog and it is the only one I make a point of reading every day. I also like you and admittedly wanted to feel some sort of connection, which is why I'm sure I am guilty of offering personal identification stories.
Maybe this topic would have been better explored amongst fellow bloggers rather than your readers. In the main, your posts are not alienating and don't discourage comments but I must admit that with this one I feel that I've failed you.
Acacia
Ohhh.
ReplyDeleteJane, I think that you have deliberately worked towards creating a space where honesty is valued and constructive criticism can be voiced. The difficulties inherent in that got a fair airing here http://seenandsaid.blogspot.com/2011/03/constructive-criticism.html but it seems that it is an issue that demands, periodically, to be re-addressed.
Constructive criticism is a lovely idea and an difficult, tricksy reality. But, for what it's worth, I think it definitely worth striving for.
Acacia - Please do not think that about yourself. You're one of the readers who I value the most - you actually read and respond to the words I write. When you're moved to share, it's from a genuine place of support and camaraderie.
ReplyDeleteI feel so wholly misunderstood by this post. What I meant as something philosophically interesting, about the nature of different mediums and the reactions they elicit, is being taken as a personal attack on specific commentors.
I really don't know what more I can say or do...
I'm not really sure where to start. I've been thinking about what you said in this post since I first read it a few days ago. Most people do read blogs like they're photographs. Sometimes, I'm troubled by how consumer-ish blogs seem, even though I know that's not the case with all blogs (I certainly don't feel that way about yours). I like the idea of looking at a blog like a painting, but I don't know that many people know how to do that anymore, just like so many people prefer television and movies to books. I think it's possible to change their experience but people need to be taught. I don't think I understood art for years; it's only now that I'm truly beginning to see it in a new light and have deep emotional reactions to what I encounter. So maybe there's an element of time too. Jane, I believe in what you do.
ReplyDeletei think this post is well thought out, well written and a joy to read. but i also think you can't please everybody all of the time. if we engage, no matter the medium, we are always bound to be misunderstood.
ReplyDeletei understand why bloggers get upset when less than ideal comments are made, especially those based on misunderstanding. but i don't understand the far reaching ideal of a blog filled with comments of a purely amiable, wholly understanding nature. i don't think that will ever exist, and should it?
I agree Ethanollie - I don't think the goal should be shiny-happy amiability. But I do think it should be respectful and open dialogue. Frank discussion does not have to hurt people personally.
ReplyDeleteThe idea that everything has to be something we can relate to seems like a dangerous one. To see everything as something we can touch, understand or compartmentalize makes for really limited way to think about things. Being empathetic is a very good trait to have, but not every situation calls for it because all situations don't relate to us personally. But ideas, thoughts, words, those things can be appreciated without needing something to tie it back to ME (in the general sense.) But it's a scary place to be, I think, because it's doesn't seem as common anymore for people to talk about ideas in a general sense, rather than a personal one. It takes practice to think from a third-person perspective and to share ideas that way as well.
ReplyDeletePS: I think your posts are thought provoking and I'm really sorry to see that the comment train has left you feeling so misunderstood and discouraged.
When I write for my blog, I'm often trying to move people rather than write something relatable. And so I'm often confused by reactions, which are rarely a response to what I've written and instead offer a counter-story. Of course, I'm flattered that people want to share their stories with me and I enjoy hearing them. But it's confusing when I'm trying to write something expressive and I don't know if I've failed or if readers simply aren't looking to be moved, rather they're motivated by an opportunity to share, to meet minds.
ReplyDeletei am very guilty of doing this specially after reading your post that often move me or remind me of something similar in my own life, but i can admit after i comment, i then feel as if i made it about me, instead on commenting on what you wrote- i often feel this way.
a song, a painting, a film can easily bring to a place were i become part of it somehow i can easily spiral into something about me, a craving a want, a memory.
jane your blog is so needed, so inspiring. really of the best out there.
Hi Jane,
ReplyDeletethere are many things I want to say with regard to this post and its consequent 'fallout', but I'm too tired to be completely thorough and coherent. So I'll stick to a few points.
I think that people relating their own experiences and stories, and their personalisation of and identification with your posts, does not signify your 'failure' to connect with readers or to move them. In fact, it signifies your success in doing so. One of the most immediate reactions that a lot of people have to works of art, music, literature, etc. that move them is to personalise it and to connect it with their own life-narrative.
I often feel a bit discouraged and worried that people view me and my blog as alienating or intimidating, but the truth is, you can't do things based on other people's reactions. If someone feels intimidated, that's their feeling, and it shouldn't be projected onto you. You can't take responsibility for the way someone feels or reacts.
I hope you find this encouraging?
I have been rolling this post around in my brain ever since you posted it. It is interesting to come back now and read how the comments have unfolded. My first reaction was "oh my god, I do that 'relating' to comment all the time" but then, I paused and stepped back long enough to realize that, that in itself was a 'relating' comment. ha.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Hila's first point, but what I now aspire to, thanks to this post, is to go beyond that "me, too" reaction and allow the beauty/imagery/story of the post to sink in deeper.
I truly love reading your blog and exploring the world you present here.
p.s. I hope you are recovering well from your surgery. I've been thinking of you.
Wow - what a thought-provoking post, and so eloquently put, as always. I don't think there is much else I can contribute that hasn't already been said in these comments, and yet I felt compelled to say something anyway.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I love the topic of how we interpret information based on the medium in which is it presented. I have never thought of it that way before, and it's given me a fresh perspective. I love that.
Second, I'm so sorry you are feeling discouraged by some of the comments you've received. I agree with Hila's thoughts above. You do an amazing job of creating unique and interesting content on your blog - once it is out there for consumption, though, it is up to the reader to digest and interpret and do with it what they will. Some will get it, some won't, some may react to it in exactly the way you intended, others may get something from it that you didn't expect but is equally positive, and still others may be disappointed or intimidated or confused. That's on them, not on you.
Thanks again for a beautiful post!